GFA25: An interview with Bertie Ahern

Two UCC students, Jack Walsh and Luke O’Connell, recently sat down with former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern to discuss the upcoming 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement as well as the Peace Process and current political situation in Northern Ireland.

“You need everyone around the table’’ to get things done in Northern Ireland and “at the moment, there’s nobody talking’’. This was the assessment of former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern when he spoke about the current political stalemate in Northern Ireland. 

Since last year’s Assembly elections, the DUP have been blocking the return of power-sharing over concerns surrounding the Northern Ireland protocol. Optimistic that the current British Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, will be able to resolve the protocol issue, Mr Ahern suggested “a green lane, red lane solution where there is an internal UK market and there's an EU internal market, and both of them respect each other.’’ Indeed, such a green and red lane system formed the backbone of the recently agreed Windsor framework which is hoped will resolve the current impasse. Acknowledging that getting the DUP onboard with any agreement will be no easy task, Mr Ahern said he doesn’t “accept that it’s an insurmountable task’’, given the very contentious issues such as decommissioning, prisoner releases and reform of policing that have been resolved in the past.

On the other major issue that has sparked uproar across all sections of the traditional sectarian divide in Northern Ireland in recent times, Mr Ahern noted that “there’s real hostility’’ towards the Troubles Legacy Bill. Part of the measures contained in the bill include conditional amnesties as well as an end to all future civil actions related to the conflict. According to Mr Ahern, “the British government think by passing the legislation, it is going to end the whole legacy issue’’. In his view it will not achieve this aim, and not only that, the view of many people regarding the real reason behind the bill is that it will protect British soldiers from further prosecutions, something a small group of Conservative MPs have been campaigning for. As was clear from the discussion, an approach that only satisfies some will never lead to successful resolutions in Northern Ireland. Mr Ahern was adamant that “the legacy legislation should not be pursued’’ and a solution lies in the Stormont House Agreement. Signed in 2014, this agreement contained solutions to legacy cases including a Historical Investigations Unit to investigate murders carried out during the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

Highlighting how the upcoming 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement should be used as an opportunity to look to the future, Mr Ahern said it is also a time for “reflection …and some celebration of what has been achieved’’. Whether the institutions are up and running for the anniversary isn’t hugely important as long as they return soon “because it is hugely important for everyone on this island’’, not only those in the North. He also stressed the importance of remembering the lessons from how the agreement was negotiated twenty-five years ago. It was, and remains, a compromise that nobody ‘won’. This is why it has endured. Asked if he would make changes to the agreement, Mr Ahern pointed out that “the agreement itself is fine’’ but that the problems lie in the implementation. That is not to say it can’t be reviewed because it has been already, via the St. Andrews Agreement in 2006. It remains a living charter. 

Looking to the future, Mr Ahern favours an all-island parliament with a regional assembly in Stormont which would form the institutional make-up of a united Ireland. He cautioned against those calling for a border poll too quickly, saying it is “frightening to Unionists who think it's all a trap when it isn't’’. Invoking the example of Brexit, Mr Ahern said the preparatory work needs to be done so that people are informed when the time comes for them to vote. He praised the role academia continues to play in figuring out what a united Ireland would actually look like, saying it is an important area of North-South co-operation. An area he feels, in general, that has not been exploited to its full potential. 

For the final part of the interview, Mr Ahern reflected on some of the regrets he has about his tenure as Taoiseach. In particular, the projects he wished he could have devoted more time to, such as his work in the area of disabilities, seemed very much to the fore. He was clear that the fact that the North took up so much of his time is not a regret but acknowledged it did not allow for much else when you included the day-to-day issues he faced as well as his drive on infrastructure. While the question of whether he misses frontline politics received a very adamant no, one was left with the impression he still enjoys being involved from the sidelines. According to him, there should be more of a formalised role for ex-Taoisigh so they can contribute in similar ways as ex-leaders from other countries do.

Mr Ahern’s assessment of the European response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine was that the EU has done a good job and that “they've kept it together more than most people thought they would.’’ Russian influence in the Balkans needs to be countered, but other challenges facing Europe should be tackled too. He identified energy as one of these. Staying with the EU, Mr Ahern felt that while the UK may not rejoin the bloc in the short term, he hopes that it will happen within a generation especially given recent polling which suggested that 60% of Brits now think Brexit was a mistake. Mr Ahern couldn’t help saying, almost exasperatedly, that this had been pointed out to the UK at the time of the referendum, but “they wouldn’t listen’’.

When asked to speak on some of the personalities he dealt with over the years, Mr Ahern said that one of the most important relationships he had with a foreign leader was with Jacque Chirac, who was “really helpful to Ireland, particularly on agriculture’’. Ian Paisley Sr. was “a reasonable enough guy’’ when you articulated your case but getting him to talk with you “was the problem’’, with Mr Ahern recalling how it took ten long years for him to get a handshake from Paisley.

Finally, and bearing in mind that the interview took place before he re-joined Fianna Fáil as a member of the party, Mr Ahern was asked whether he would consider a run for the presidency in 2025. His answer: “Listen, my main aim about the presidential run now is to see that I'm alive when it happens and then we'll see what happens. But I want to be alive”. When pressed that he hadn’t said no, Mr Ahern smiled, telling us to wait and see.